Frostbolt, a World of Warcraft Blog

28 Mar, 2006

My statement

Posted by: Gahlok In: General

Here comes some rant without screenshots, hehehe.

Lets see how I should begin. My brother would say that I like to fight and argue for everything. That might be right: I’m the kind of person that likes to argue about things, most of the times my arguments are correct, and there are very few times that I just argue because I’m bored (heheh). In real life we could say I’m a bit bitter, I have to do my best not to keep arguing in fights because usually they end up pretty bad, and, well, I’m someone that can be fun sometimes, but then, the bad side of myself isn’t nice when it comes out, lol. Even like this, my brother knows how to handle me (my brother is older than me, by two years). Probably my problem is that sometimes I let situations control me. Yes, I’m not perfect, but probably that’s what makes me be what I am (none is perfect, right?) This isn’t something I like to share with everyone o_o

Why am I saying this? I’ve been in Self Titled since November of last year, so that would be around five months that I’ve been member of the guild. On my World of Warcraft history, I’ve been (in that order) in Arsenal (closed beta, retail), Needs Food Badly, Horizon and then Self Titled. I left Arsenal because I had issues with a couple of people in the guild, Arsenal also had problems because, even tho we were quality people, we were never quantity, so we couldn’t do end game by ourselves, and had to do it with other guilds. Needs Food Badly was awesome, but the problem with Needs Food Badly were the raid times, they were too early for my work schedule and I could never raid with them (or I would usually join late, and what’s the fun of that). NFB was more a social guild rather than raiding, and even tho a social guild is really fun, at this point, many players in WoW are wanting more and more to see end game. Then we see Horizon, that was a newly guild formed by people that left other guilds. The guild only lasted a couple of weeks before it broke up. Then Self Titled.

Self Titled was the coolest guild I’d ever join. Their raid times fitted perfectly, there were cool people, I got equipped by them (and no, it wasn’t free, I went to every single raid and was one with highest attendance) and I could raid almost anything (MC full clear, ZG full clear, Onyxia full clear, AQ20 working, AQ40 working, BWL working). Why would I leave? I had it all: respect from most of them, I was one of the leading druids (along with Eilianna), once I was an officer of the guild, etc. etc. etc.

This is when the argument begins. Last night I left Self Titled. Yesterday morning I found out that the night before (that would be sunday) my raiding team (Team Kerrigan) went to Blackwing Lair, and they took down Razorgore, by the first time, doing a “trick”. This trick consisted on a Paladin using Divine Intervention (gives the target a shield, the target cannot be attacked and cannot attack) on someone, and this would basically make that the next attempt would be free of mobs on the first phase. On Razorgore’s fight, the hardest part is having to kill the eggs and dealing with the mobs that were zerging the place, and then the second phase, killing the boss, is the easiest of all. We can say that they skipped the hardest and went to the easiest. They said that, officially, it’s not considered as an exploit, because horde cannot do it (horde doesn’t have Paladins), they asked a GM before trying it. My point of view about it is that you can feel it’s not correct: what would be the point of skipping the hardest part of the boss? The game is supposed to be challenging. From their point of view, there are many ways to show that it’s not an exploit, not at all.

I’ve made many errors. There’s also a “bug” that we used to use in Zul’Gurub with Bloodlord, and I never said anything. I am dirty, probably, but this is one of these times I have to step up and say “Hey, what was done doesn’t make me proud, it’s not correct”. The problem here is that, 98% of the guild agrees with what was done or doesn’t even care about it. Why? Easy epics, Razorgore drops all tier 2 bracers. Would I want to reach Nefarion knowing that we “skipped” a few bosses using “tricks”? Now, I’m not talking about strategies, I mean things that could “modify” the event so it doesn’t work as it should.

Another example would be Hakkar. Before the patch, Hakkar was very easy, at the point that he was dissapointing. Before the patch, everyone would stand in a place, a warrior would tank him and then it was just a matter of time to kill Hakkar. It was not an “exploit”, the problem was that Hakkar wasn’t working as intended (Blizzard said). I wrote in my blog (I think) that it was so dissapointing that there were bosses even harder than Hakkar, and it was so sad because Hakkar was the end boss, he should be the most challenging, and by being challenging, when he went down, it would make everyone proud of the fight. When the patch fixed Hakkar, I spoke with someone in my raid team, and I was saying that it was cool, finally a challenge (end boss). The guy said (and a few others) that he would prefer the old Hakkar, because it was free epics …

Going back to what happened last night, when I logged I was chatting with a few people. Two of them made the whole situation worst (one of them was even making fun of me in guild chat). I was invited by someone I know to an AQ20 run, and while I was there, I kept being whispered about me being there applying to a new guild, lol. They didn’t even know the facts and they were accusing me already. I wasn’t applying to any guild, I was just passing the time there. Then someone I really estimate comes up in a whisper and told me that “it was until that time that he believed I was a good player, but that me raiding with other guild changed his point of view”. After many whispers of this kind, I left the guild, and can you believe someone I estimate (of my raiding team), without even listening to my side, told me “yes, you are leaving us after getting all your epic set”. WTF. I asked him if he knew why I left, he said that he didn’t care. After I explained to him, he was like “Umm…” Why would you insult someone like that without even listening his side? Is people guilty until proven innocent, or innocent until proven guilty? Think about it, would it be so easy for me to leave considering I had everything? Perfect raid time, good raid team, etc. etc.?

This morning I log into the forums, and I found out that my account was “nuked”. We usually remove people from the guild group, but they went even farther and totally deleted my account. Geez, that was very easy to do.

Now, who would be a loot whore? (if that’s how you write it).

• Someone that stays, knowing that what he’s doing is not correct, but still remaining because the person knows it means free epics.
• Someone that leaves and defends his point of view.

When I left, I was still the highest druid with DKP (more than 255 points). And I’m the loot whore? The main thing that pissed me off is that almost none felt that doing what they did in BWL was not correct.
Yeah, blame me, flame me, whatever. Feel free to post your point of view, but be constructive.

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16 Responses to "My statement"

1 | Hadaka

March 28th, 2006 at 11:46 am

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I am an officer in my guild, formally a social/casual guild, that has started MC, We have managed to get all the way to Golemagg so far. We are currently evaluating our current looting methods, visitin ZS DKP, which i have always been opposed to, but I rarely get time to raid.

My point is I am on the “officer” side of this issue(i play on Thorn, carebare server), and let me tell you, from what I have read, I despise that style of leadership. Although you /gquit, which is normally considered the worst thing a member can do, they should have addressed the issue before it came to the point of accusing you of being a “traitor”.

Now I have only heard your side, but being an outsider, i will say they jumped to the conclusion a little too fast about you leaving, however, did you address the fact that you would be joining another guilds raid for fun? Looking back, not that you should need to aske permission, but bringing it up beforehand might have prevented the onslaught of negative whispers.

This however does not change the fact that it sounds like the officers assumed the worse, instead of investigating and openly discussing it before coming to any conclusions.

I feel real bad for you that this has happend, I have enjoyed your blog for months now and hope you can get past this issue. It will be tough to overcome the reputation this situation will have with the “loot whore” stigmata, but you will overcome it and find a guild that will love to have your abilitis and playstyle.

The fact that you enjoy difficulty and play the game for the gameplay and not loot speaks very highly of you!!!

good luck and keep up the good work with the website!

Cant wait to see how this story unfolds, and to see the Hero (Gahlok) become triumphant (sp?)!

2 | Anonymous

March 28th, 2006 at 11:50 am

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In general, players will always be shunned for their philosophy in any MMO. Doing something legit or the “right way” doesn’t matter. It is always about getting it done. We will call that progress. People need to feel they are progressing in a game or they don’t feel like it is time well spent.

The game changes to an extent that makes success mean something different each time it is completed. For example, if you killed Onyxia in Feb/March of 2005 and people used a “trick” to get out of combat, was that legit? This could go on for months (pick you instance), People are equipped with items they shouldn’t have. Then Onyxia gets fixed. The next wave of people to go are up against a much different fight and must do it legit. This could be very challenging now, but killing Onyxia still has the same status. Those that went early got equipped well enough they are over the “challenge hump”. If they kill Onyxia “legit”, can you really call that a success? They have equipment they should not really have. The fight isn’t the way it was supposed to be because the group is much more powerful. So the gap widens between those that got in early to “trick” their way through and those that are attempting it for the first time. (Remember for early MC: Tier 2 dropped off of most bosses).

I would venture to say any group of people that focus on raiding as their primary objective in a game should call themselves a Raiding Group. Don’t call yourself a guild. Please stop slandering the word guild. A guild should be a long-lasting community, one that survives from game to game. Raiding groups are people with lots of free time, a need for loot, and a need for challenge. But let me define challenge – Something new, fresh, or not previously experienced. If you look at ZG, it is really a mini-MC. Is there really something all that new? Big deal – now you just need 300 nature resist instead of 300 fire resist.

Basically it is all to say most people are loot centric. Reading your post, I would classify you as loot centric because the only area that was missing from your first guild was End-Game. People, including you, weren’t concerned about the group of players/friends, it was really about progress. I find that most people forget that loot doesn’t mean a much in the end, but somehow, that becomes they only measurement for success.

- You have moved from guild to guild. Seeing that type of history, why would anyone think you would stay with a guild rather than leave it for something that worked better for your immediate needs? Just an observation more than a request for an answer.
- How many people do you know are in the same guild from beta or the start of retail?
- How many people or guilds have you found that have not budged on their stance, even if to sacrifice end-game or so-call progress?
- If you have a guild that is formed on a whim, why do you think they wouldn’t dump you on a whim?
- If you are looking for a challenge, find a group of people that don’t care if they get loot or not. How about even passing a chance at loot so another guildmate can get it?
- If you are looking for a challenge, look at ways to better debate rather than argue.

WOW has been designed to put people as they level in the game in bad positions. You either Raid 24/7 or you get stuck at 60 with little to do if you have been in the game for a while. Tier 0.5 sets are just a way for Blizzard to not make new content for smaller groups. It is too late. Those that have passed that stage of the game won’t care. Those that are approaching that stage of the game will get stuck grinding those out until they can find a raid group. Then what? Grind out MC. Then what? Grind out BWL. Most will leave their friends to join the latest bandwagon for loot… I mean progress.

3 | Gahlok

March 28th, 2006 at 11:51 am

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“Now I have only heard your side, but being an outsider, i will say they jumped to the conclusion a little too fast about you leaving, however, did you address the fact that you would be joining another guilds raid for fun?”

Well, I’m not sure what you mean. If you mean the AQ20 raid I went last night with another guild, it was because a friend invited me (and I had to clear my mind). I haven’t joined any guild at all (and last night after the tons of stuff going on in whispers I decided to logoff). And yeah, the game is supposed to be fun =/ But I don’t find fun what is going on, not at all.

I agree with the /gquit thing. The irony thing here is that, there were also a couple of things that had to do, for example, I quit my officer position a while ago (a month or so ago) because of things I’m not going to mention. So, seen from other point of view, it’s not only for what happened, but for things that have been happening (and, until last night, I had hopes for that stuff to change, but they weren’t changing).

Thanks for the support =)

4 | L'Emmerdeur

March 28th, 2006 at 11:58 am

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Alliance raiding = EZMode.

Join the Horde, mate, earn your loot like a real man!

I would pot this on the WoW realm forum, as they have denied you the opportunity to post your side of the story on the guild forums. God knows they deserve a bad rep for this.

5 | Gahlok

March 28th, 2006 at 12:02 pm

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Well, this was discussed yesterday in the guild forums (someone made a post related to it, that’s how I found out, then I started to make questions and most of the ones posting kept saying that it was not an exploit/cheat).

Then that night I spoke with a few people, most of them made the thing worst (of how they explained, still saying that it was not an exploit and it was not wrong).

6 | wowguy

March 28th, 2006 at 12:33 pm

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I think that the people in your guild treted you unfairly. They didn’t listen to what you had to say. Leaving the guild was a bit drastic, but you were defending your views and thats great. I sounds like some of the people in your guild were bad eggs from the start they just didn’t show their bad side until you got them angry.

7 | Hadaka

March 28th, 2006 at 1:11 pm

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I think i just meant, maybe in the officer’s eyes, you should have told them you were going with another guild to avoid any implications. however, IMO that is stupid, and you shouldn’t have to “ask” permission to have fun with friends, but I was merely playing a bit of devil’s advocate!

Every guild has drama…its best to avoid it and ignore it, although it is difficult when you are an officer.

Also, obviously the issue is deeper and more drawn out, which from this perspective left you no alternative but to /gquit, which should be used as a last resort, and appears to have been used in this way for your situation!

I commend you and applaud you for being as mature as possible about the whole situation!

again, good luck and happy hunting!

8 | DarkstaR

March 28th, 2006 at 1:25 pm

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Guild drama is always a part of this type of a game. Just think of bringing 20-40 people together to do anything, and most people who dont play will see how things can get out of hand in a heartbeat. I have lurked on this blog for quite sometime, mainly just to see the higher level hijinx of someone who can actually raid and talk about it (My 60 pally ass cant even get his Lightforge shoulders to drop, /cry) I judge character well, and I think you made the right decision. Bottom line, if the group you are with makes moral decisions you don’t agree with, and cannot live with, drop them. I’m sure you will have no issue finding another group that fits your schedule. Too bad you aren’t on Hellscream, Silent Legion would bust a nut for a druid of your caliber. GL finding a better team, and back to lurking I go….. (poof) :)

9 | Alison Elisabeth

March 28th, 2006 at 3:52 pm

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I think you did the right thing. In all honesty, it doesn’t even matter if it is or is not an exploit. The point is that it made you uncomfortable, and you should not have to explain, endorse, or engage in something that makes you uncomfortable, especially during what is supposed to be your fun leisure time.

The game is supposed to be fun. If something is happening to you that makes you uncomfortable, and makes you dread logging in, or feel uncomfortable when you are playing, then you should have the right not to do that thing, and your guild would have done well to understand that.

Ethics isn’t always about right and wrong, it’s also about understanding that different things make different people very uncomfortable. If the guild hadn’t been so horrible to you about it, I would have said that leaving was overreacting too. They have a right to believe it isn’t wrong if a GM said it was okay, although I agree with you that it’s skeevy.

I don’t think I could ever raid. Every raiding guild I have ever known has had something like this happen. I enjoy reading your blog and I’m sorry you have to deal with the drama.

10 | uruloki

March 28th, 2006 at 11:15 pm

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Good choice Gahlok, just going off your inputs of course ;)
As far as the AQ20 goes, it’s pretty much like bigger UBRS the way my guild treats it. As long as you don’t lock yourself out for when the guild needs you, have fun with whomever. Self Titled sounds like they’ve gotten a little self absorbed…

11 | Kinless

April 7th, 2006 at 8:48 am

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On “exploits”:

Remember Out of Combat rezzing? We had the same discussion in our guild. Was it an exploit? Blizzard even said it was a strategy early on. Then, it seems, they changed their opinion and fixed their code that severly limits it.

If I ankh during a battle with Onyxia now (currently taking longer than 25 minutes, and not always a success :/ ) I don’t have time to drink water and restore my mana. I’m immediately back in combat as if it were a combat rez.

But back after they announced their intent to change it, while it was still possible to have OOC we debated in the guild how we’d handle it. Gimp ourselves before the patch, and go with the “intent” and not designate any OOC rezzers, or simply do as we always have and adjust when the patch removed that tactic. We wound up doing as we always have and when the patch “fixed” it, we adjusted and carried on. And we do fine. (Maybe it’s all our Tier 1 gear we’ve got equipped, gotten in the easy days, that make the new harder days easier. Like you say, early recipients of gear gotten easy mode have an advantage over late comers.)

P.S. Nerf Pallys!

On guilds:

There are guilds that cross over server to server, game to game. Those must be nice, solid, guilds to be in. A guild created to merely farm MC with 40 who can show up on schedule, that sounds too much like a job. For what? Pixels on a screen?

Running AQ20 (it really sounds like a job saying it that way) with friends in another guild, if you are doing a boss you’ve locked yourself out from doing it with your guild. You have removed yourself from your guild’s resource pool to run the place. Guilds after loot are defensive on how their resources are being spent.

(They helped you gear up, you owe them. However, as you say, positive 255 DKP means they owe you at this point!)

A guild that is honest when it says “We’re casual” wouldn’t care. You’re all friends, or together for reasons other than this particular game.

A guild that freaks out when you run with another guild, they’re not your friend, you’re the healbot they need to get a shot at more loot. Now, granted, while they use you, you’re using 39 of them to get loot too.

You’ll be lucky to be in a guild that meets in the middle. Semi-casual, friends, and still loot/progress driven.

12 | Saylah

April 8th, 2006 at 4:37 pm

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I love what Anonymous said about a guild versus a raiding group. I think WOW’s implementation of loot and the craze they’ve created for its acquisition, has permenently hurt MMORPGs. Other games had nice loot, but the insanity over phat loot that exists in WOW is insane. It pits player against player, friend against friend and completely changed the dynamic of group play. There is no RPG in a race for loot, and Blizzard has turned loot into crack.

I left my long time guild because I was tired of reading the arguments over not having enough ppl to do every 40-man instance every single week. I was tired of raiding and chasing loot on my 60. I wanted new toons, new professions and a chance for new experiences. I left Illidan and joined acquaintances on on another server who wanted to start a casual guild. Too small to do the end-game raids, people were rolling new toons if they had a 60 or helping others to level.

The honeymoon ended too quickly. You can’t hide from the loot obession for long. Within 4 weeks they decided to merge with another guild so that they could do the 40-man raids. Everyone who had a 60 bailed on their alts and started running raids 7 days a week, which left me and a few others leveling alone. *sigh* No one has time to help you or stop horde from camping you, they are all too busy with raiding. For me there was no point in the change and I’m going back to Illidan. I might as well solo there with a level 60 of my own to back me up and supply me with comps and gold.

I’ve learned a valuable lesson. Blizzard has created a beast and there is no escaping it. If you’re going to play this game with the general populous (no rl friends), you’re going to have to deal with loot issues, difference of opinion about what the end-game is, your end-game goals and how you want to conduct yourself and spend your time in WOW. And we’re not all going to agree. I want to be part of a guild. Unfortunately, they’ve butchered what that means.

13 | WoWplayer

April 9th, 2006 at 8:07 pm

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Dude…it’s just a game…the way you described your exploit sounded like you killed someone or something…
So, yes, you did find something you can do and the Horde can’t…you get your Tier 2 bracers, so why complain? I know i certainly wouldn’t…
I mean…you seriously shouldn’t care unless you’re one of those super addicts that do RP for like…5 hours in the middle of Ironforge trying to sell bread or something…
Dude, this game is just a game. Exploiting things in the game? So what, you get TIER 2!
Seriously, don’t complain…and you made a mistake leaving such a good guild…

14 | Bakel

April 13th, 2006 at 8:41 pm

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You really did forget that part where you randomly started to sling about insults all over our forums right before leaving.

You can take the high road all you want, but my last memory of you in this guild, when I had a high standing of respect for you, was you, calling people bad druids, telling people that they suck at their class, and generally insulting the entire guild.

There is a saying, Gahlok, about not burning bridges.

15 | Gahlok

April 17th, 2006 at 12:03 pm

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Hi Bakel!

Please point out where I “insulted” and “called names” in the forums. Keep in mind that I no longer have access to it (since my account got –deleted– the day I left the guild).

I’m surprised that you say that I used to talk bad about other druids and how they sucked being it. The only scene I would probably admit being guilty of charge was Shugotenshi, but I had my bases, and you can also ask Eilianna. If you had an eye you would also get to know of what was going on, but you probably weren’t. Also, when have I insulted the guild? My only saying is that I don’t agree with the things that are going on, I’ve not called names and I won’t call names (I hardly insult people, if you notice).

But, that’s how you see me, probably I cannot change it, I still see you as a friend, and I really don’t care or mind if you see me as something bad. Be happy and have fun with what you are doing, at the end, that’s what’s the game supposed to be, right? Fun? I can say for myself that I did not find anything funny on what happened, but then, that’s the past, I have to look forward.

16 | I’m bored =( at Frostbolt, a World of Warcraft Blog

April 21st, 2006 at 12:09 pm

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[...] Lets see if I can give a bit of information of what is going on. since I left Self Titled. I came back to the game a couple of days ago (still unguilded, btw) and it’s getting boring because I hardly have things to do. Yes, I’m an instance bot, considering that I leveled Gahlok most of the times on instances, and I’m used to work like that. The problem that is arising is that I’m uber bored of normal instances (I leveled there… lol), and even tho that’s what I’ve been doing these days, I miss doing stuff like ZG/AQ/MC/BWL and stuff like that (even tho people say it’s boring, lol). I’ve been able to make quests, which is great, and keep raising my fund for a Libram of Protection, for my ZG enchant, (props for Ritsuko, Sonik, Stinkypete and Valos, or something like that, for a cool Scholomance run, I could complete a bunch of quests), also the other day I got Pattern: Robe of the Void. [...]

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Currently playing in Mal'Ganis-US PvP Server:

Gahlok - [ Armory Profile ]
Level 70 Night Elf Druid, member of Pro Baddies Guild.

gahlok /at/ frostbolt /dot/ com

Made in Panama.

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